February 15, 2006
Anatomy of a Forum (part three)
imagined by: James Mathias
I’m continuing our open-ended discussion on the modern forum GUI with the third installment; topic reading view. This is going to be the most controversial view–I believe–because I’m going to suggest stripping out a large amount of clutter and secondary information that’s unnecessary to the task at hand; reading the topic. Today I want to discuss a little about why it’s important to focus on the topic itself more, and less on the secondary information that often accompanies the modern forum GUI topic reading view.
What’s important in a topic; the topic, what people are discussing, what’s being said. What else is important; who wrote what and when they wrote it and if they’re online now. What else is needed; ability to quote, edit and delete posts by themselves or in groups. What information is unnecessary and why, any and all secondary user information; titles, groups, pips, ranks, warning levels, registration date, post count, avatars, signatures, physical location and user contact links.
All of the above is secondary and it all pertains to a single user, and currently forum GUI’s repeat them on every post, and in most instances this information is all displayed on the left hand side of each post, making it the first thing our eye encounters, every time on every post.
Do we need to know this information every time we read a users post? No, in fact you don’t need any of it. None, nada, zip. That’s why with the exception of one piece of the secondary information, I’m stripping it all out of the topic reading view, now it can all be found in the user’s profile, where it belongs.
The only secondary info that is going to survive the cut is the signature; I think although secondary it can be useful for business and personal forums alike, if it’s moderated and restricted properly. The signature also gives the users a little something to help individualize them.
I’ve completely destroyed the topic reading view! Not the case, I’ve only trimmed the fat, the bloat, I’ve put the topic reading view on a diet and its lost fifty pounds.
Where are we then? Well, now we have a very clean, light, legible topic, with only the most necessary information available and very little extra. I can literally hear some of you grinding your teeth, because I’ve taken away all the nifty users stats and info and left you feeling naked. I promise this is not a bad thing. Let’s discuss each item I removed and why I feel it’s unnecessary to the overall topic view.
Titles, groups, pips, ranks; are all information of the same kind. They live to segregate us, to separate us from each other; these stats are community deconstructions not builders. They give us very little useful information whilst reading a topic, they only tell us who is the most important person in the topic, when in fact everyone should have equal weight in a true discussion, that is, until their own words cause them loss of respect or weight in the topic. These informational hindrances do nothing for us, but indirectly suggest a user’s validity before we even get a chance to hear them speak. With the exception of groups or user levels–which allow us to have differing permissions for the software–they can be stripped out of the software entirely. If they are left in, then display them only in the user’s profile, and put very little importance on them.
Registration dates, post counts and physical locations; again further unnecessary separation, who cares where you actually live, your location is not relevant to 99.9% of the discussions. Your registration date is irrelevant as well; if you are an active member of the community your length of membership is obvious, if you’re inactive enough for it to matter, than you should ask yourself why you’re even registered there in the first place.
Post counts, are a complete waste of everyone’s time, and only tell other users how you spend far too much time online and not enough doing other things. A post count should be an administrative statistic only; it doesn’t need to be displayed for all users.
Avatars, are useless pictures, that represent nothing, the same thing can be accomplished with a signature, and more flexibly, not to mention the load on each topic view when you request fifty, thirty kilobyte images, just so everyone can further differentiate themselves from the community.
Contact links; e-mail, www, pm, your IM of choice. These have no place being in the topic view, if you need to contact someone directly; you can look at their profile and choose a contact method from there. Personally, when I need to contact someone I’m not going to go look for a post they made, I’m going to search for them in the member list, or go directly to their profile and for those rare occasions when I do make a on-the-fly contact, it’s just as easy to click their name to go to their profile as it is to click a contact button and fill out a form. Just less clutter.
We’ve only discussed the posts themselves so far, because posts are the bulk of the topic reading view, what about the rest of it? For the most part it’s quite similar to the topic listing, with a few additions.
We add an “Add reply” button inline with the “New Topic” button and fade out the “New Topic” button so that the “Add Reply” button stands out more, making it easier to find and click without mistakes.
We’ll also add a text link toggle for standard and outline post views, as I believe both have their specific uses, and I find both useful at different times. I would place these links to the left of the page navigation and “Add Reply” and “New Topic” buttons at the top of the topic.
At the very top of the topic, below the bread crumb navigation I would place the topic name and description in large text like the category and forum names of the forum index and topic listing views.
We’ll keep the online users box from the topic listing, as well as the bread crumb navigation, of course adding the forum name linked back to the topic listing, and the name of the topic we are reading, without a link in the bread crumb navigation.
With the removal of so much extra, commonly used information the topic reading view is much more concise and easier to navigate and follow the topics actual progression. Here’s a full screen shot of what we’ve discussed.
Thanks for continuing to read our articles; I hope to see you again soon.
Next week: Profile View, Member list, and Inline Help.
Anatomy of a Forum (part three)
- 02.15.06 at 11:30pmthrown down:
- James Mathiasimagined by:
- Developmentally Ablestored in:
- 1572 peeps, 40 of whom commentedenjoyed by:
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40 comments
Feb. 16, 2006 (1:15am) [#1]
David Sissitka
I like it, though there are a couple of things that I question.
1) Is there any particular reason that you’ve kept the “This user is online.” image? In my opinion, it has little to do with their creation of or response to a thread.
2) Similarly, is there a reason for the “New Topic” button? I believe that it’s there so that if one is inspired by an existing thread to create a new thread they would do so, as apposed to going off topic. In reality, how often does that actually happen? I suppose we cannot tell, regardless of the message board I’m visiting, there is always off topic discussion.
3) There are now two “Forum Index” links, one in the bread crumb navigation and another in the header. I’m not sure what I would do in this situation, as I believe the one in the bread crumb navigation is necessary, but pages without the bread crumb navigation would be lost without the one in the header.
Anyways, it’s all opinion, it was a great read James.
Feb. 16, 2006 (1:29am) [#2]
James Mathias
Hi David,
1.) I believe it is useful to know if the participants in a topic are online or off at the time you are reading or posting to the topic, it is slightly redundant to have the information in the post itself, as it can be found at the bottom of the page as well, but I would personally prefer to not have to scroll to know the answer, possibly losing my place. Also this would be CSS styled text not an image.
2.) It would be unfriendly to force a user back to the topic listing to create a new thread, it’s there for usability sake.
3.) This is redundant, yes, but at the same time it is necessary, imo. Due to the idea that a bread crumb menu is not necessary on all pages. This could be replaced with my logo idea, or removed entirely, due to the fact that in almost 99% of cases, the only page to not receive a bread crumb menu would be in fact the forum index itself, leaving the link unnecessary and redundant. Another reason for it’s inclusion is continuity, giving the header a standard navigation and look so the user is comfortable with a escape route if he finds himself in a place that needs immediate exit.
Feb. 16, 2006 (2:06am) [#3]
Kennedy
Wow. I think that is awesome. That is really well thought out, man. Good work!
:thumbsup:
Do you plan on making a skin like this for IPB? I’d certainly be interested in it.
Feb. 16, 2006 (2:07am) [#4]
Kennedy
Oh, one thing. Fast reply?
Feb. 16, 2006 (3:41am) [#5]
Dietrich
It really looks very nice. Again, it reminds me of Phorum, it’s even simpler. You should really consider donating your skin to Phorum.
I share your opinion on leaving all the contact links out, although I think an avatar is still very useful, on some boards it may be used to provide a photo of the user. Although a user should be able to hide all the avatars in his forum options (as in UseB
.
Feb. 16, 2006 (4:45am) [#6]
Michael
I was thinking for topic views like that, if you click the posters name, their profile page appears ontop of that, and the topic page “greys out” Similar to this JavaScript image thing (LightBox JS) only as a functioning web page.
Thats my plan for implementation on my project I am working on. Just wondered what you thought of that idea?
Feb. 16, 2006 (11:21am) [#7]
James Mathias
@Kennedy, thanks, yes I have plans to release the final AOF skin for both IPB and vbulletin, through Motif Lab. At least as close as I can get without having to make source code modifications, because neither software is really set-up to fully accommodate my concepts.
@dietrich, I don’t think avatars are needed at all, if a picture of the user is required it should only be found in the user’s profile, it doesn’t need to be inline with every post.
@Michael, I think that would be an interesting way to display the information, and it would allow the user to stay in topic. My only concern would be the dependance on a script that can be turned off or blocked by the end user. I try to keep javascript use to a minimum, and supply a non-javascript method for users that have it turned off.
Feb. 16, 2006 (4:02pm) [#8]
Goof
I do like your ideas, their partly what i’d do if i made a skin for myself, but i don’t agree with them all
Personally i often find custom user titles to be a place where people put.. well, funny things. I’d go for a “if custom title then display else don’t” option.
Avatars have exactly 1 use. It allows for more easy scanning of topics. In several topics about avatars on forums this is the one arguement in favor of them i see recurring. Simply deleting the option of a premade gallery user can select would mean people are forced (to a degree) to make their own personal avatar. Adds a bit of personallity. But keeping with your reasoning, it’s true that who posted something shouldn’t have impact on the discussion itself.
Online users i find quite useless all around, on topic view and everywhere else. But i realize a lot of people like it so
Fast reply is definitely something i’d like to see if the forum software supports it.
I very much agree that postcounts don’t matter. I don’t agree with your reasoning for it though (passing judgement imo). Pips fall into this category. Useless in general.
One exception to this could be a group icon (or even member group) for admin/mods. This is a bit of a toss up really. Often people will blindly follow an admin’s opinion without question (groupie behaviour - i think we’ve all seen it). But on the other hand, when someone makes a “guys, stay on topic” post, it has more impact when it’s a moderator/admin that posts it. It makes it clear that when someone posts a “moderating type” post it’s actually that person’s job.
But in the end i guess the cons outweigh the pros. Question of trial and error i think. Give it a try, but be prepared to put them back if necessary.
For ease of moderation i’d prefer to have a mod/admin only option of displaying the warning level. Since it is for most forums i see no reason to delete it altogether.
The only real downside i see on this topicview is the one i noted in the avatars comment: it all becomes quite impersonal looking imo. Like an outline view forum. Of course the fact that your mock up doesn’t have any graphics in signature (and forum logo :P) it’s a bit hard to pass judgement. When a skin like this is used on an active forum i/m curious to see how it works out.
Feb. 16, 2006 (4:16pm) [#9]
James Mathias
Hi Goof,
I wrote this part of the series knowing I would be called out on many removals from the view. I stand by my reasoning on all counts.
As for the fast reply this is something I overlooked not because I don’t feel it has a place, as it does, but because I did not want to try and make form fields using Photoshop, and in reality I wouldn’t change much about the fast reply at all, I would only clean up the code used to produce it, but the layout and location of it in most modern software is fine.
Feb. 16, 2006 (9:37pm) [#10]
Kennedy
@James: Ok, sounds good. What about fast reply?
You could have two versions of it. One with source code MODs and another without.
Feb. 16, 2006 (9:42pm) [#11]
James Mathias
Hi Kennedy,
I addressed Fast reply in my comment to goof.
Feb. 17, 2006 (12:38am) [#12]
Jaydee
I’ve been keeping an eye on this series of yours and it has really served me well as a reference. I’m applying the points you’ve made not only in the view, but in the data schema as well, but not totally, since some data need to be there for statistical purposes. Because of this trim downs, some JOINs for the sake of displaying “uneccessary” info were removed.
To cut it short, thanks for the great article and can’t wait for the next installment!
Feb. 17, 2006 (3:47am) [#13]
James Mathias
Hi Jaydee,
I’m glad you’re finding my articles on the modern forum GUI useful and helpful.
Thanks for reading.
I agree a great deal of optimization can be done in the source code as well to make forum software more robust and efficeint.
Feb. 17, 2006 (10:37am) [#14]
Jamie
Very impressive
Good stuff James!
Feb. 18, 2006 (10:20am) [#15]
Dietrich
What about having the reply form (minimalistic) below the topic view as in miniBB (thus having no seperate pages to post replies)?
Feb. 18, 2006 (12:07pm) [#16]
James Mathias
That would be OK to do, I don’t have any opinions against it.
Feb. 19, 2006 (9:46am) [#17]
Paul
All Good stuff of whicg I agree with.
Feb. 19, 2006 (12:08pm) [#18]
Marko Mihelcic
Great GUI m8, tell me where could I find that board ?
Feb. 19, 2006 (12:14pm) [#19]
James Mathias
@Paul, Thanks.
@Marko, MyTopix will be close.
Feb. 19, 2006 (5:52pm) [#20]
Ncu
Actually you are very wrong when you say that avatars are worth nothing. The image makes it very easy to identify posts from the same users. Without an avatar the eye needs to always read the author name in order to know who wrote that post. Secondly images are much much more easier to remeber than text(author names).
I think you are speaking from a designer’s point of view. A forum owner knows that having the number of posts each user has displayed, makes a lot of them want to post some more/score more higher in the rankings,etc.. thus more traffic, etc… .
Things are not likely to change in the near future.
Feb. 19, 2006 (6:17pm) [#21]
James Mathias
Hi Ncu,
I appreciate your opinions, thank you for sharing them.
But, in the future please do not say that I’m wrong because my opinion differs from yours. I’m not wrong because I don’t agree with your view, just as you are not wrong for not agreeing with me.
I stand by my opinions on post counts and avatars. I don’t feel they are relevant to community discussions, much less to be included in every single post in a given topic.
I would like to address your comment on the post count driving traffic and member participation; If this is true then perhaps it is time to reevaluate your communities purpose and content. I would personally prefer a community of members that posted because they enjoyed discussing the topics at hand, not to further themselves in a secondary, self-imagined competition for the highest post count.
As for looking at this topic from a designers view only, that would be incorrect. I am approaching this from the point of view of someone who has run his own community for 5 years, as well as someone with a great deal of work and personal experience in the art of GUI design and programming.
Again, I appreciate your comments, and views. Thank you.
Feb. 19, 2006 (11:11pm) [#22]
Wilhelm Murdoch
No, James, don’t you get it? You’re WRONG! VERY, VERY WRONG! Bad, James, BAAAAD!!!
Feb. 20, 2006 (1:13am) [#23]
James Mathias
Extremely hilarious, Wilhelm.
Feb. 20, 2006 (11:28am) [#24]
Daniel Wilhelm Murdoch
C’mon now, James. Would you really want my comments delivered any other way?
Feb. 20, 2006 (5:01pm) [#25]
Ed
Love the series. Very well thought out.
I tend to disagree with you about avatars, for one reason only – it would seem easier to control the user customization via a 60 x 60 pixel avatar than in a signature block that could potentially include much larger images (bogging down the forum). On the forums I frequent, the issue of out-of-control signatures is a real concern. They are also just as repetitive as avatars.
So I guess I would diverge with you just a bit and allow a small avatar but not a signature with each post. Signature data would seem well suited to a user’s profile page, though.
That’s a very small quibble with your proposed design, which I think would be a tremendous improvement over so many bloatware forums out there.
Feb. 20, 2006 (6:22pm) [#26]
James Mathias
Thanks Ed, I appreciate the compliment.
My main reason for choosing a signature over the avatar is that it is more flexible for personalization than the avatar.
As for “out of control signature” syndrome, this is a moderation issue, not a code or GUI issue. The administrator needs to set guidelines, and then follow through.
Boards with out of control signatures, usually suffer from either poor moderation, or dumb asses, who cannot read. Ultimately though it is up to the administrator to enforce the guidelines they set.
Again, thank you I appreciate the comments.
Feb. 21, 2006 (1:12am) [#27]
Andrew
I have to say, I agree with most of what you have stated so far in this series. Having worked and been a part of forum communities for many years now, I have seen what even the smallest of “features” can do when it comes to dividing a community.
The only thing I really want to say has already been said many times so far, just now exactly the way I see it. For one, I agree that the use of avatars can bog down a forum and cause more stress on a server or connection than it should for its minor benefits. However, I feel the same way about a lot of signatures too. The point that I agree with that has been brought up by Ncu, however, is that it gives readers a quick way of establishing the author of the post. It may seem lazy to think that most people would rather have a picture as their identity than their username when it comes to this kind of thing, but I’ve found it to be true. Even on this site’s comments, people use avatars. To me, as long as they are kept to reasonable dimensions and sizes, they aren’t a huge problem. Also, with signatures, there is a relatively easy way of cutting down on the repatition of the images. You can either disallow images in signatures, or, as I prefer to do, have signatures load only once in a thread view. This way, the user has their signature seen, but it’s not repeated in every one of their posts, as 90% of the time, it’s really not neccessary. Most signatures get read once, and that’s it. After you’ve read it initially, you never really look at it again; so why load it? You could also have it to where it just disables images after one display of that particular image in the thread.
I’m just babbling though. Looking forward to the next article.
Feb. 21, 2006 (3:30am) [#28]
Michael
Another option, which I am toying with for the project I am working on, is to have the full details of the topic starter, but only the signature of the repliers - But I think thats probably more suited to the project I am working on. Just thought I would share my plans.
Feb. 21, 2006 (5:15am) [#29]
ekerazha
I disagree with removing “physical locations” and “avatars”.
1) Ex. for “physical locations”: I’m Italian and when I write in English I make many mistakes (like now). If somebody sees (Location: Italy) he could understand I’m not *illiterate* but English is simply not my native language. It could be also replaced with “Native languages” instead of “Location”.
2) Avatars give a “human approach”. When you meet somebody in the “real life”, you see his body. Inside a forum you cannot see his body, but you could see his “avatar”. Like I’ve already said, this gives a human approach and it’s useful to immediately identify people without have to read their nickname every time.
3) I also agree with Goof for the usefulness of the “group icon”/“member group” thing.
Feb. 21, 2006 (10:39am) [#30]
James Mathias
Everyone loves avatars.
I’m not going to defend my reasoning for avatar removal, I understand that it is a beloved feature, but I don’t believe it’s a necessary feature.
@Michael, That is an interesting approach, and although I don’t agree that the first post should contain all the authors information, there is something to be said for making the initial post display differently from the rest of the replies within the topic, but that would be an article in itself.
@ekerazha, You have a valid point about location. But, what if the reader doesn’t look at your location at all? Then they just think you’re an idiot? I like to believe that most people are intelligent enough to realize when someone is speaking a second language, as opposed to someone who is just uneducated in their first.
I think another thing to consider is that a majority of people abuse this feature, I’ve seen entries from “Behind You” to “Noneya Business” to “A place where I can’t say because it would be against my beliefs” I do not see how any of these are helpful to the reader on a every post basis.
My point on just about every thing I stripped from this view is that it doesn’t belong inline to a discussion, it’s all secondary and it all belongs in a profile view if it exists in the software at all. Please understand I am not suggesting we remove features from the software completely, just that we rethink their necessity and location of display.
When you have a forum your main goal is to create a community, part of being a community is getting to know one another. Communication helps this along.
In person when we communicate do we preface each of our points with all our background and secondary information? Do we use pictures to identify one another in a conversation? Do you need to tell me before every sentence that you are not from around here?
I just honestly think getting back to the basics of what forums are about is the direction we need to go, and stop concerning ourselves with the secondary and irrelevant information.
Feb. 21, 2006 (11:00am) [#31]
Daniel Wilhelm Murdoch
Or, at least, if you have a need for irrelevant information, place it in an area that is relevent. I’m a forum developer and I say that about 95% of what you commonly see in a post row ( reply ) is just redundant information. The way it’s handled now is no different than if you included an entire profile page for EVERY POST.
If you want to find out about a user, then click on their name to be taken to their profile. I’m sure people are smart enough to notice your butchered English and think, “Golly, I had better view this good fellow’s profile to find out more about him. EL OH ELZZ!! ^____^”.
Personally, I feel the profile screen is a very important, yet VERY neglected part of forum software.
Also, concerning the use of avatars, just put tight restrictions on avatar dimensions. Gravatars are also a great solution, although they restrict the maximum size of an avatar to 80x80 pixels. In a standard forum design, 80x80 is plenty big enough. If you have special needs for your design but don’t want avatars to get out of hand, then have a predefined set for your users, like an avatar gallery.
I didn’t just hire James because of obvious artistic talent, I hired him because we both agree that the face of forum software’s seriously needs to be rethought.
That is all.
Cliff’s notes: I agree with everything James tells me.
Feb. 21, 2006 (11:38am) [#32]
ekerazha
@James
I understand your point of view. But in my opinion, the truth is often in the middle.
I’ll make an example. If you invite me to your home to talk about something, there isn’t only the discussion, but there should be a comfortable place where we can talk. If you reduce a forum to a heap of text, then this is not a comfortable place. If you fill the forum with 400x400x10MByte images then this is not a comfortable place. You have to find an elegant compromise. In my opinion avatars could be one of these “elegant compromises” because they try to fix an impersonality issue.
Humans are made of senses: touch, taste, smell, sight, sound.
Touch, taste and smell are not practicable.
Inside a forum you replace the “sound” with written words, but you still lack the visual impact of the “sight”. Avatars could be this “visual impact” of personality.
Windows has avatars, instant messengers have avatars, many scripts support avatars. People like to have an own representation to fill the lack of personality.
For the “native language” question, I have to say that many people is not so intelligent (I speak from experience). So I still think a “location”/“native language” field could help. You can look at this as another “natural approach” thing. That is my “language accent” eheh
Feb. 21, 2006 (12:22pm) [#33]
James Mathias
@ekerazha, Again defense of my idea to remove avatars is no longer being made, so there is little point in continuing your arguments in favor of.
I understand and respect the opinion of everyone who has made a plea for the plight of the avatar, but please understand this is an article, based on my opinion of the best case scenario. I sincerely doubt that any software application would be made faithfully to my concept.
As for the location idea, yes the world is filled with stupid people, and not so stupid people who make mistakes and smart people who make assumptions, but that doesn’t change the fact that the information is secondary at best and better suited for singular display in the profile view as opposed to multiple times in the topic view.
In all honesty, do you really believe that anyone needs to be reminded of your incomplete English every time you post?
Feb. 21, 2006 (12:55pm) [#34]
ekerazha
@James
“In all honesty, do you really believe that anyone needs to be reminded of your incomplete English every time you post?”
Maybe… because also my “incomplete English” appears every time I post
However… the “location” word in every post could be replaced by a country flag: nice and nobody could abuse of it (there’s no flag for the “behind you” country
).
Feb. 21, 2006 (1:35pm) [#35]
James Mathias
I would not be opposed to tiny flag icons in the reading view, they would have to be small in both physical and file sizes, and should be placed in an unobtrusive location, such as in the signature row, somewhere that it doesn’t get in the way of the topic itself, but is there if needed.
Although, I still think it should be left to the profile view, I can see it’s usefulness being inline, but it should definitely be an option, not a requirement.
Feb. 21, 2006 (1:46pm) [#36]
Daniel Wilhelm Murdoch
Actually, I think the flag idea is a fine compromise. But, I still agree with James that this type of information should be kept strictly within the profile screen.
Feb. 21, 2006 (2:13pm) [#37]
ekerazha
@James
I agree.
An “optional” inline small flag could be a good compromise
Feb. 23, 2006 (11:11pm) [#38]
Farid
Overall a very interesting read, I won’t comment on any individual issues but I will say I’ve been looking for a new lightweight skin for IPB forums I run and this seems to fit the job description perfectly :p
Will keep an eye on this site until it’s released!
Feb. 24, 2006 (3:02pm) [#39]
James Mathias
Hi Farid,
Thanks for the comment, I appreciate it.
Feel free to sign up–if you haven’t already–for our mailing list on Motif Lab, as that’s where the skin will be released.
Mar. 08, 2006 (3:30pm) [#40]
Adam
Nice article James I enjoyed readind it, but I feel something like “Location: Italy” would beat a flag image. What if someone does not know what flag is for which country? Have a mouseover? But then you may as well do the text for loading and resource purposes.
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